The Irony is Not Lost On Me...

I just had the strangest thought after trying to search for this article on Karma that I found interesting (the author himself does not believe in it either - the article deals with the situation arising from 'time' - cause and effect, and time being an illusion in essence...so there is no cause and effect really...I'll have to try to find it).

But anyway - I came across this other one saying that one of the reasons why some people don't believe in it is because they don't want to take full responsibility for their actions. Looking back at how I was treated by the WWII forums owner and moderator.

Both of them believe in Karma, although in different ways...yet, thinking about that article and what they said about responsibility and those not believing in it, and my experiences with two people who do believe in it...I am coming to the conclusion that - at least with these two people, despite them believing in it - they didn't want to take responsibility for their actions (the owner never apologized for having wrongly assumed something regarding an incident).

This little epiphany makes me wonder about things further.

I don't believe in it - yet I fully acknowledge all my actions and such and take responsibility for myself as far as I possibly can.

Those two did believe in it - yet the owner never took responsibility for her 'wrong action' against me...yet at the same time decides to lecture me on taking responsibility for my actions.

I'm beginning to think that this concept of Karma really screws people up...just saying based upon my own experiences.

(for some reason I can't edit my post) - anyways, I wanted to add from my blog, as I just posted about this, but expanded on it:

Today (21st) started out a bit rough, but by the afternoon I started to
feel better. Had some interesting 'epiphanies' regarding people and the
concept of Karma. There was a site I wanted to find, someone else
didn't believe in Karma either (their explanation dealt with time being
an illusion and the whole 'cause and effect' thing). Instead, I came
across this site where these people were giving explanations as to why
some don't believe in Karma (I being guilty of that to the nth degree).
One of their reasons, which I thought was rather bad - and I will state
why later, was that there are those who don't want to believe, or don't
believe because they don't want to accept full responsibility for
themselves. This struck me as very ironic. The reason is, is because
at the moment I am healing from what happened in regards to being banned
from that WWII German reincarnation forum. The owner, and moderator,
both believe in Karma, but in different ways.

You see, there was an incident that happened in that forum where the
owner wrongly assumed something and I got 'DA' - disciplinary action
against me (not in the typical sense, but in some very odd ways).
Anyway, when I was trying to question about why I was banned, she told
me about taking responsibility for my actions. I told her, in my email
that I had sent to her after I got back from the WWII event that I went
to, that I was taking responsibility for myself by protecting myself. I
stated something along the lines that owners and moderators can't
always be around to watch people and that if my being responsible to
myself is seen as 'wrong' or against the rules, then things need to be
reexamined. Yet, the owner never once apologized to me for having
wrongly assumed things and having taken action against me. So, the
irony isn't lost one me here:

I don't believe in Karma - yet am aware of things to the point of actually being 'over-responsible'.

She does believe in Karma - yet tells me to take responsibility for my
actions, but at the same time, does not take responsibility for having
wrongly assumed and therefore making an apology to me.

My epiphany can be summed up simply as - this belief in Karma really screws people up.

I know it won't make everyone happy, but this isn't the first time I've experienced this with someone who believes in Karma.

And getting back to what I wanted to say about this whole 'non-belief in
Karma essentially means you don't want to be responsible for yourself'
(as per those authors), is the same as saying - you must believe in God
to be a good person. Now we all know that's not true. So don't tell me
that believing in Karma will make me a more responsible person.

Oh dang it I shouldn't have opened this thread -- I don't have time to read it through! Just wanted to give you...



... a big, animated hug since I can't do it in person. I'm glad you're working through these hurts, Prien. Writing about them is certainly one good way of releasing them. Well done, you.

I'll be back to finish reading later. Gonna go visit the kids for now...

That is ok Plur...everything it its own good time.

But yeah...that epiphany was one of the 'epiphanies of the ages' for me for the year.

Ahh. Well said, Prien.

Some folks who take such 'universal laws' ('karma' and the 'law of attraction', for instance) out of context and give them a black-and-white interpretation (as though these 'laws' exist on their own, without influence from other factors) also use them to make negative judgments as well as to absolve themselves from any responsibility or compassion toward others.

Just as you experienced from 'karma' proponents, many like to support their own beliefs by denigrating the faith, spiritual advancement, personal motives and/or humility of those who view things differently.

I saw a definite shift in the attitudes of a lot of people immediately after "The Secret" was released as a movie: Many healers and spiritual helpers who formerly responded with compassion to the problems and illnesses of others suddenly became judgmental and blaming, responding with "Why did you manifest this for yourself?" Where before they would have offered, at a minimum, a sympathetic ear or perhaps some energetic support, they now offer only admonishments, 'You need to take a look at what you're doing to attract this.' 'You need to manifest change for yourself.' It's become very cut-and-dried for a lot of people -- you got yourself into this mess all by yourself, and now you must deal with it alone.

Um, ick?!?

As you've realized, strangely absent among many of these folks is any sense of personal responsibility for the problems in their own lives, viewing these as tragedies while ignoring their own beliefs that such things occur as a result of one's negative energy or under-developed spirituality.

Again, I'm happy to be processing and releasing these things now - and it helps me a lot to write them out, so although I'm sorry you've encountered this yourself, I appreciate your sharing these experiences.

You're Welcome Plur re/ sharing. I understand it was an odd way for me to go about having an epiphany of sorts...but that's apparently how my mind has to process things before I came to the final conclusion of:

One does not have to believe in Karma to have a sense of responsibility...(heck, I wouldn't doubt that there are atheists that don't believe in it and they too have a 'sense of responsibility').

Well I couldn't find the original site I mentioned, but here is one by Lazaris talking about the whole 'time is an illusion' thing and how it relates to Karma:

http://www.lazaris.com/publibrary/pubkarma.cfm

...seems like a pretty good read.

Oh my. I really enjoyed reading that. Not all of it resonated, but I loved the point of view. Thanks again, Prien.

You're Welcome I would have given a longer response yesterday, but I've been tired from helping 'my' mom with moving into her farm.

I didn't know there was a sort of 'shift' with things when the Secret came out and a number of folks started to be like that...but it wouldn't surprise me for some reason...

Well, I attribute the change in attitudes that I observed to the release of The Secret, but to be fair - as any scientist would say - 'correlation does not imply causation'. There may have been other factors as well, and it may have been more of a local phenomenon, although I did seem to notice it more in the forums I visited.

Definitely saw it as a shift, though; I saw it happen with people I'd known to be very kind and compassionate listeners. It was a bit shocking.

How's the move going? How much more do you have to do?

Hmmm that is interesting Plur. (Sorry, it's been an interesting day for me...as this morning I became consciously aware that there was a change of souls in my body...- put that in my blog - and I'm 'working through' the 'fall out' with that...so I'm rather just tired...on all levels).

Oh it's going ok...but this is just the beginning...there's a lot more stuff to move...probably the second week in august things might...might...be totally done.

Here's another article I'll throw in - keeping with the whole 'Karma and Time' theme...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-lanza/does-the-past-exist-yet-e_b_683103.html

From the Spiritualist view Karma is known as the “law of cause and effect”, it plays a central role in showing the path to how our life should be lived. The idea that the Soul is allowed to choose how and when to suffer for the wrongs done. This might well follow that Soul into this life from a past life.

The idea that Karma is carried over from a past life to this life. That the crimes say that have been committed in a life are carried over in leaving the body (in death) and are to be
dealt with in the afterlife. The Soul might choose to be born into a physically or mentally lower level of a body to clear past Karma and from there grow in new understandings.

From the views of Edgar Cayce (The Sleeping Prophet)

“Karma is neither a debt that must be paid according to some universal tally sheet, nor is it necessarily a set of specific circumstances that must be experienced because of deeds or misdeeds perpetrated in the past. Karma is simply a memory. It is a pool of information that the subconscious mind draws upon and can utilize in the present. It has elements that are positive as well as those which may seem negative.”

“What Goes Around, Comes Around”

The American view of what Karma is …..a specific action leads to specific results, so if it’s a positive experience in a positive event that might well bring in a reward in this life, and possibly in future lives to come. The flip side is a negative experience in a negative event might well bring in a debt to be paid in this life or possibly in future lives to come.

The Three-Fold Law is a principle understood in many spiritual traditions in various forms.
• What you give out comes back to you 10 times.
• The sins of the fathers are carried forward for 7 generations (for those who don't believe in reincarnating and reaping it in future lives).
• What you do to others will be done to you. Etc.
In essence, the Three-Fold Law is this: What you give out returns to you, multiplied.

Oh my dont get me started on Karma.....that was last Sunday's Church Open Discussion topic.......


Fun fun and more fun.......



Lynn

Quote :

From the views of Edgar Cayce (The Sleeping Prophet)

“Karma is
neither a debt that must be paid according to some universal tally
sheet, nor is it necessarily a set of specific circumstances that must
be experienced because of deeds or misdeeds perpetrated in the past.
Karma is simply a memory. It is a pool of information that the
subconscious mind draws upon and can utilize in the present. It has
elements that are positive as well as those which may seem negative.”

That I can agree with, but I wouldn't call it 'Karma'. I wouldn't dress it up in spiritual words like that...I'd just call it 'memories' - because that's what it is. It cuts out all the crap with the semantics regarding the word 'Karma'.

Quote :

That I can agree with, but I wouldn't call it 'Karma'.

I was thinking the same thing.

It's understandable that we (humans) try to develop a common language with which we can describe our experiences as we share them with one another, but my initial delight at discovering the 'language' of metaphysics has long passed.

When someone uses a single word ('Karma' being an excellent example) in describing a personal experience, it's unclear to me what they mean, because these words carry so many different meanings, one person to the next. I don't find these terms so handy any more!

Anyway, thanks for that last link, Prien; very interesting article, and 'timely' for me as well.

Truth is that Karma is Lore, not Law, it is apocryphal. It is similar to the wicca lore/law of the Threefold Return. Think of it as a morality lesson - if you do this, then that ..... . It is not an inevitability, it's just that we lose sight of all the times that cause does not lead to effect, and we recognise "karma" after the event.

But one of my points is that atheists don't need to believe in these things to be good people. It's like when I read about atheists having no morals because they don't believe in God (geeze that brings back memories as to how I was treated when I was going through a period of atheism myself).

Why do people have to believe in these things to be good people? I feel that they don't have to.

I also want to bring a sort of update to all this too - this 'story within a story' I guess. I checked my other email account to see an email that was about 2 wks old from one of the members of this forum I was banned from.

She told me that there is someone there that is now bugging them for this information regarding some author...can't remember the name off hand.

But - I had to smile to myself when I read that...because the forum is now being pestered...not me. *big grin*

I wanted to add this link - ABC News - Monkey Morality. I think it's an interesting video:

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/science-monkey-morality-human-link-similarities-evolution-12299947

Kapitan_Prien wrote:

But one of my points is that atheists don't need to believe in these things to be good people. It's like when I read about atheists having no morals because they don't believe in God (geeze that brings back memories as to how I was treated when I was going through a period of atheism myself).



Hello Prien





OMG can I ever relate to that statement as when I was 13 and put me FOOT DOWN in Salt Lake City that I would not go to the temple there even as a tourist. OMG I got the lecture of a lifetime from me Mom.....and me Dad whom was seeing more and more the rebel in me was willing to let a bit more go. He said that campground was secure and if I did not want to go so be it. That was the first time I really took a stand. I did not at that time want a thing to do with God. I had alredy left the family chuch.....this was more. I had good morals I just did not see God, as he would not at the time "take away the voices " from me. I know now that I was given that gift or ablility for a reason and I now embrace being whom I am and what I am. I t oo know that the path of turning away while it lead to a path where there was even more OMG raised eyebrows it was the right one for me. I became a Member of the Church of Satan, and as I posted on here in a thread its not that dark and EVIL place that word "Satan" brings to mind. It was not a "Cult" that is that dark places. We were simply free to be in our own SKIN and to ask for what we truly needed in our lives. We were NOT free to have group sex like so many think it was about.



What it brought me to was the NDE Event and the END to playing in things and to the place of understanding things. Not a bad place to have gone. Never went back to God but what I did learn to do is repsect in the teachings of God and the Bible as just that teachings that one can take something from and apply ot to one's daily life but not attach to the "Dogma" that be there in structured Religion. That is not to me a bad thing its a place of univeral accpetance.



Why do people have to believe in these things to be good people? I feel that they don't have to.



WE all have to have I feel a CORE belleif with us now that said I so do not mean a "Dogma" beleif or one that comes forth from a book, more something that we define as being SELF. We are all at the root of us good too we are all at the root of us with the ablity to be Evil. It is the choices we make and how we govern ourselfves at times that defines t hat part of us. Respecting too that at times choices are maybe made for us.

I also want to bring a sort of update to all this too - this 'story within a story' I guess. I checked my other email account to see an email that was about 2 wks old from one of the members of this forum I was banned from.

She told me that there is someone there that is now bugging them for this information regarding some author...can't remember the name off hand.

But - I had to smile to myself when I read that...because the forum is now being pestered...not me. *big grin*

Four year's later I still have those "reaquests" I hear. It makes one feel GOOD to know that some still respect in one's words.





Lynn











That is FUNNY as I still get that some 4 year's later from a place I was "banned from " as the Old posts of mine still be there. STUPID really if one feels a member is SO BAD for a place would one's work not be taken from there ????

Re Lynn:

Yeah I understand where you're coming from. I think I'm going through another good humdinger of a 'deconstruction' period. Not just covering the whole time the body's psyche has been exposed to this stuff, but also the early post-soul exchange time. People might not realize, but I once did believe in Karma...but I deconstructed it (and in the process destroyed it) - that started in 2009. That was Pt. 1 of this whole 'Karma' bit...this is Pt. 2....and you know, it's feeling pretty good waking up from all of this. Waking up from the 'paradigm'.

On that forum - yeah it really is rather funny. I guess they have a bit of a conundrum on their hands. Oh well - not my problem. They ban me and then not much later...hardly a month and a half, and they have someone pestering them.

The thing is, I helped to expand that forum. Not to toot my own horn here, but it was me who brought up expanding it so that it could include those of us who fought in the war - not just those involved in the Holocaust. It was expanded. I had also helped by posting tons of information on crystals, essences and essential oils - and even homeopathy. All the members liked me actually - it's just the owner and moderator...it's a long story...but I wasn't the only one who felt the way I did regarding them both.

Time for a liddle drink...

Hello Prien





I always feel things happen for a reason and at times we are simply re directed. WHY at the time is not always easy to see and maybe at time we never get it. I just know that what goes around comes around. Or LOL at times one hopes it full well does. Nothing wrong in a NIP in one's bottom from time to time.....I feel . Not that I be one to nibble on another man's bottom and especially NOT on a woman's bottom.





We at times put forth many HOURS of our time and our efforts to find that brick wall hits us. I have faced that at times. Maybe its our Guides stepping in to say slow down.....take time to sip that drink.





I be more fan of the BEER.....than the cocktail......





Lynn

I can go with being 'redirected'...but for chrissake...there is no need for all the crap that seems to go along with it. And on top of that - there must be another place *right there* to take the place of the other one...none of this nonsense dilly-dallying in between. I can't stand that.

Kapitan_Prien wrote:

I can go with being 'redirected'...but for chrissake...there is no need for all the crap that seems to go along with it. And on top of that - there must be another place *right there* to take the place of the other one...none of this nonsense dilly-dallying in between. I can't stand that.

Hello





I have NEVER found a replacement for the place I was, and I have tried. SO I finally embraced that maybe its not for me. I dont like it but too its OK. In my caee Ghosts and Spirits are NOT play things....they were once a living and still are a living being. Just transformed. I refuse to go into a place and go "Make a noise for me tell he whom ye are " before I ask if they NEED help. ( If that is even asked at times ).



For now work on SELF til maybe the WORLD catches up with one....that is where I be at.



Lynn

Lynn wrote:

Kapitan_Prien wrote:

I can go with being 'redirected'...but for chrissake...there is no need for all the crap that seems to go along with it. And on top of that - there must be another place *right there* to take the place of the other one...none of this nonsense dilly-dallying in between. I can't stand that.

Hello

I have NEVER found a replacement for the place I was, and I have tried. SO I finally embraced that maybe its not for me. I dont like it but too its OK. In my caee Ghosts and Spirits are NOT play things....they were once a living and still are a living being. Just transformed. I refuse to go into a place and go "Make a noise for me tell he whom ye are " before I ask if they NEED help. ( If that is even asked at times ).

For now work on SELF til maybe the WORLD catches up with one....that is where I be at.

Lynn

Come to think of it...I don't think I will ever find a place for myself that I feel like I fully 'fit in'.

Last night I had such an epiphany that cleared out guilt that by the time morning came, I had a rather violent 'nausea episode'. I nearly vomited.

...so yeah, until the world gets a fire lit under its rear end (I'm tired of doing that, someone else's turn now) I'm just going to take care of myself.

Hello Prien





While I am sad to hear one was not feeling well, I too am pleased to see that one see's the real focus and that truly is on SELF. I always say if there is no ME there is nothing for anyone else.



I once again find me in the midst of unrest....with a group I be with and I am finding that I am simply stepping out of the mix. That is not usually me but right now with all I have on me plate its right to do so.



The time will come....when one's that be "seen" as different will take the stage.....I have come to understand from the outside looking in I be seen.

"I talk to dead people" and that can scare people or even upset them....but too I have to be ME. Fine line in what is said and how and where I say it.....



Ye better than anyone would understand that. Take care of Prien as I so like that person I talk with as do other's here. Here one fits in.....







Lynn

Yeah I understand what you're saying. I think my difficulties come about because of the fact that I didn't reincarnate by birth and so it's a big juggling act and I believe I found an essence that will - hopefully - help me deal with my own inner state, while still trying to take care of 'external things':

'Sacred Sphere' by Dancing Light Orchid Essences:

This essence creates a subtle energetic sphere that one can “be“ within, while you engage in your daily activities; It helps you maintain your personal clarity.

That's my problem...and hopefully that's the solution.

I think another from them that may help is this one:

'Defining Edges'

Create your personal boundaries without creating separation from others.
Creating boundaries provides an important part of your definition
of self, as well as, strength, safety, and integrity.